Clayton and I talked about how he got really upset when I said that I hate men.
1. he said that he was partly upset because when I said I hated men he assumed I didn’t include him and he feels like people have always not counted him as a man because of his disability
2. also that it just hurt
I tried to talk about “the split” which is really what I am thinking of when I say I hate men. It is just a feeling of parts of you being in a really deep opposition to each other. For example on Saturday a really kind and friendly bad brains man (about twice my age) sat next to me on the bus and I loved that we talked and it made my whole day better but:
1. he asked me if he could sit next to me and I basically couldn’t say no
2. he kept referring to my looks
3. he made me take off my sunglasses so he could look at my eyes
4. he asked me if I had a boyfriend
This didn’t really bother me because he wasn’t trying to pressure me into giving him information so he could contact me. It didn’t feel the same as that. But it is an example of how I hate men anyway. Why did he feel like that was okay? Why was it so normal that I didn’t even feel bothered by any of it?
This is the split and it’s hard to tell how I feel about it because I want to treat everyone with charity and lovingkindness and be interested in people even if they do something I don’t agree with, even if they do something I think is terrible.
But sometimes I wonder what is me being charitable and what is me being railroaded and just putting up with people’s privilege.
In high school my best friend was this really sweet lovely kid who was also such a straight guy. He didn’t treat me bad for being gay like the other straight guys but he still said ridiculous stuff like that he thought people were just pretending to be gay for attention. I loved this boy and something I love about myself is that I am a person who could love him even though he did stuff like that.
But damn there is something a little strange in it and I occasionally get spitting mad when it occurs to me how calm I am.
Recently I said something horrible to a friend from a minority group I’m not part of. There are a lot of things wrong with what I said but the worst thing is that I didn’t feel instinctively that it was wrong the way I would if it was something that was hurtful to me. So she had to explain to me how bad it was.
She wasn’t mad. She was really sweet about it, and in her calmness, I’m guessing, was the split between her and me.
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"Why did he feel like that was okay? "
ReplyDeleteBecause sometimes some girls think it's okay for some guys to do that, and actually welcome it. In which case, maybe two people find lasting happiness in it, or maybe a moment's happiness.
And there's no way to know in advance (especially for those of us on the spectrum) unless the guy tries showing interest and sees what happens.
And if she's not interested, he's done something hurtful to her? Or it is it that he insults her by implying that she'd be interested in a troll like him? I'm still kind of fuzzy on how all that works.
But I imagine that if girls were constantly hitting on me wherever I went I'd sometimes go "can't y'all just ignore me and let me chill for a while???"
so, reading your comment actually makes me want to smash my head open, congratulations.
DeleteI don't know read this or something: http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/
be 100% honest. if a gay guy came up to you, asked to sit next to you (and you can't really say no because you don't want to be rude), kept telling you you were beautiful, asked you to take off your sunglasses (which you put on at the beginning of the conversation) so he could see your eyes...you'd just totally think it was cool and have zero problems with it because otherwise it would mean that you think the guy is a "troll" or you hate gay people or something?
interestingly I get the impression that a lot of straight men actually want to KILL gay men (and people they perceive as gay men) just because of the merest hint that the person may have been hitting on them. it is that traumatizing to them to have someone hit on them that they are not interested in.
where's my straight panic defense?
I asked Clayton what I should say to you and he suggested: "Part of the etiquette of approaching people is approaching them in a situation where they can get away." I agree.
if you really feel that this guy had a burning need to compliment my appearance, why didn't he just tell me "by the way you're pretty" at the end of our conversation? if he had a burning need to find out if I wanted to date him, well he clearly didn't. this was just the way he wanted to talk to me.
I would also just like to say that I really don't think the guy in question learned to behave like that from girls who love to be hit on by strangers. Actually, I'm pretty sure the whole "men can be as intrusive as they want towards women" idea came about with very little input from any girls at all.
DeleteWell thank you softestbullet, I actually feel the same way.
Delete"be 100% honest. if a gay guy came up to you, asked to sit next to you (and you can't really say no because you don't want to be rude), kept telling you you were beautiful, asked you to take off your sunglasses (which you put on at the beginning of the conversation) so he could see your eyes...you'd just totally think it was cool and have zero problems with it because otherwise it would mean that you think the guy is a "troll" or you hate gay people or something?"
ReplyDeleteI'd be hella uncomfortable. And I'd find an excuse to get away. But then again, a lot of things make me feel hella uncomfortable, including some things that other people seem to think I should be totally cool with.
"I asked Clayton what I should say to you and he suggested: "Part of the etiquette of approaching people is approaching them in a situation where they can get away." I agree.
That makes an awful lot of sense.
So the guy has to establish not only that she has a way out, but that she has a way out that she wouldn't think would be perceived by you and others as rude if she used it.
And then he has to appear nonthreatening *and* attractive.
No wonder it goes wrong so often.
Yeah, I'll read that link again. First and foremost, a strange guy just might try to hurt you. I see other guys the same way, that they might possibly try to hurt me unless I know them well enough to think otherwise... the only difference is I'm not looking for romance with them and most of them aren't looking for romance with me, so there's a whole lot of push-pull weirdness that doesn't get mixed up with that for me. I don't know if that last bit made any sense to you, but it's helping me shift perspective here...
No offense but if it goes wrong so often why doesn't he just not do it. Just internet date or something.
DeleteI am not sure I know what you mean actually Ken. When you say you'd feel uncomfortable but a lot of things make you uncomfortable, are you saying that if someone feels uncomfortable at being approached or treated this way by a stranger, that is on them?
DeleteI'm saying that if I feel uncomfortable at being approached, that doesn't mean the approacher is actually doing something wrong. Sometimes I just don't know.
DeleteIn your example of the guy hitting on me, do *you* think he's doing something wrong?
Well, I had a problem with a man doing the same thing to me (I wasn't upset but I felt it was symptomatic of a problem), but you seem to think I should be okay with it, so I wanted to know if you would try and make yourself be okay with the same situation.
DeleteNo I wouldn't make myself be okay with it. You've got a good point there.
DeleteI didn't mean just him. I have no idea how often he strikes out. I'm saying that mapping out other people's escape routes before you try to talk to them is non-trivial, and very few people will ever include that advice when they try to tell someone how to approach people.
ReplyDeleteWhen you spell it out and explain why, it's obvious.
(That link you posted earlier is stirring up a lot of thoughts about body language, and passing as normal, and such, but it's getting late...)
Now my new hypothesis for "why did he think it was okay"...
ReplyDeleteIf a guy screws up an approach and frightens the approachee, she'll do her best to conceal the fact that he's frightened her. With good reason... if he turns out to be a genuine predator, showing fear is like putting blood in the water near a shark. So her goal is to end the interaction with a minimum of embarrassment and with *no* accurate feedback going to him.
So unless he has another source of information, he's not likely to ever discover exactly what's going wrong. From his point of view, a lot of women treat him like a leper, but a few of them (the ones that don't pick up on the red flags) don't. That suggests a strategy of "approach lots of women and see who lets the interaction continue". Now most of us know that it's just not right to go around frightening people.. but he doesn't know that's what he's doing. As far as he can tell, it's kind of like jobhunting where employers apply arbitrary rules to try to filter down to a manageable number of applicants that includes the best ones.
Or maybe he *is* a genuine predator and you made a clean getaway.
I don't think this man was a ~predator and I don't really think this question is a big mystery.
DeleteMy answer to the question is because a lot of men think they have a right to comment on women's appearances, a right to have women try and look nice for them and show them what they want to see, and a lot of men (although maybe not this men) think they have a right to at least a show of sexual interest from women.
I've had several of the kind of interaction you describe above, and it always feels wrong and uncomfortable to me, though in the past I could never see *why* they made me feel that way.
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't happen to me very often --- most men treat me just like they would another guy, because I'm big, butch and not attractive to most straight guys! I feel really lucky about that, since probably 99.5% of the time I DO NOT WANT straight guys' attention --- but whenever it does I feel bad, and don't know what I could've done to shut them down in a way that is nice, friendly and polite. I suspect there is nothing.
(I even tend to have Bad Feelings in the background when a male friend compliments me on how I look. Not because I feel like they're being invasive, but just because any comment of that sort calls up all these unpleasant, borderline skeevy episodes in my mind and I really do not want to associate my friends with quasi-predatory middle-aged men who hit on me. It also makes sexual and romantic interactions with men, which I have and desire occasionally because I am bisexual, more complicated than they should be and makes me less able to be at ease in such interactions. Like I'm always waiting for them to try and cross a line without me noticing it.)
Hey its Chris. This reminds me a little of what we talked about lastnight and what i told you happend. even thow your situation was different. Its just where we where talking about guys bothering girls and they dont like it or the other guys that care for them not likeing it.
ReplyDeleteI mean with the guy on the bus. even thow i know you said he did not really bother you and thats good i guess. I just would not like it if someone did that with me or with one of my ladyfriends, but to some people or girls i guess its not really a big deal to them, and i guess i can understand that.
ReplyDelete